11/18/17

Tom Brennan – DOUG FLYNN, BUD HARRELSON, REY ORDONEZ, AND LUIS GUILLORME – A QUICK COMPARISON




Tom Brennan – DOUG FLYNN, BUD HARRELSON, REY ORDONEZ, AND LUIS GUILLORME – A QUICK COMPARISON

Luis Guillorme is a steadily rising player and defensive whiz in the Mets minors.  How do his numbers compare to three low power, great fielding Mets players in days of yore, namely Doug Flynn, Rey Ordonez and Bud Harrelson.

Doug Flynn started out with Cincy, making the majors after a quick 3 year whirl thru the Reds’ minors in A, AA, and AAA in 1972, 1973, and 1974, debuting in the big leagues in 1975 just as he was turning 24.  He was traded to the Mets in mid-1977 as part of a trade for a certain HOF pitcher whose name escapes me.

In 1978 and 1979, he went a little Iron Man on us, playing all but 11 games over those 2 seasons.   His Mets highlight was a 61 RBI season in 1979, when he only managed to amass as many as 42 ribbies in any other of his 11 seasons.

Overall, Doogie had 4,085 plate appearances in the bigs, and put up .238/.266/.294 stats, with 115 doubles, 39 triples and 7 homers in his career.  And in 1980, he won a Gold Glove with the Mets!  (Unlike the other 3 mostly-shortstop-playing gents in this article, Doogie was mostly a stellar 2B, but he also got into over 300 games at shortstop, which I had kind of forgotten).



Bud Harrelson also managed 7 career dingers, in 5,516 career plate appearances during his career spanning 1965-1980, starting his big league career at age 21.  Besides beating the snot out of Pete Rose, the 5'11', 160 (generously) SS managed to compile 45 triples and 136 doubles, and was better than Flynn at working out walks, giving him a career split of .236/.327/.288.  He also won a Gold Glove, at SS, in 1971.

Rey Ordonez, another petite guy at 5’9”, 160, managed not one, not two, but THREE gold gloves at SS in 1997-99.  All told, he played with the Mets from age 25 in 1996 to age 31 in 2002, playing 916 games for them in those 7 years.  He got old young, playing just 2 more years totaling 193 plate appearances with other teams.  Rey’s career nombres were .246/.289/.310, very similar to Bud and Doogie, with 129 doubles, 17 triples, and 12 homers.

Luis Guillorme is a 5’9” 199 pound lefty hitting SS, considered the best glove in the organization by some.  He will play his age 23 year next year, most likely starting at Las Vegas in AAA.

In his minors career, his numbers most closely parallel Harrelson’s offensive numbers, with a career .285/.361.328 split in about 2,000 plate appearances.  Unlike Buddy, triples are not a part of Luis’ forte, with just 2 so far (1 every 1,000 ABs vs. Bud’s 1 every 122 at bats), and just a few homers. 

Had Luis played in less power-focused times, like the other 3 did, he’d surely have a similarly long career – but in an era that highly favors power bats more than in the past, it will be interesting to see if he gets the chance for real playing time in the big leagues that he will soon deserve.  The Mets hit just 61 homers in 1980, when both Doogie and Bud were playing; 136 in 1998, when Rey was playing; and 224 this season. 
Luis appears he will be a very low-powered player in a high-powered world, with his glove and a knack for getting on base as his calling cards.

20 comments:

Mack Ade said...

Tom -

You have never been high on Luis, which is fine. I understand your concern for his (so far) lack of power.

I have always been high on Luis because I saw this kid play early and I had never seen a more polished defensive shortstop that this team EVER produced. EVER.

I also have always been a 'defense first' for 'middle fielders (C, SS, 2B, CF). You give me 4 Golden Glovers there and I win 10+ more games.

One thing I guarantee you... he will play either SS or 2B in the majors, beginning next season.

Tom Brennan said...

Mack, fair enough - your defensive take is quite important - THAT is his extreme tool - his power has been missing, but an extreme glove AND solid OB % can be a workable, frequent MLB player. I do remember (even more than with Rey Ordonez, for some reason) what a great fielder Doug Flynn was. I would take that from Luis as a frequent contributor, especially if he can get on base in the bigs.

I do recall how Harrelson lacked power - I think his first MLB homer was on an inside-the-parker misplayed by the right fielder - I am just concerned that he nonetheless had mid 40's in triples, and Luis has just 2. I think if Luis could take his combined extra base hit rate from one every 30 plate appearances to one every 20 PAs, it would be a real plus for him.

Ans I would not say I don't like Luis - I do - I just am quite concerned over his non-power game in a Powerball era.

Reese Kaplan said...

Good glove, no power and no speed? Ruben Tejada II

Mack Ade said...

Cold Reese... cold.

Unknown said...

Reese is the Eneneezer Scrooge or Better yet the Andy Martino of this platform lol

Tom Brennan said...

Reese, Luis' edge over the Ruben Sandwich seems to be the glove, as per Mack. We'll eventually see if that is true. Mack's reputation as a prognosticator is on the line here big time!!

David Wright inducted into the Hall of Fame - no, not THE Hall of Fame:

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/261997070/david-wright-inducted-into-afl-hall-of-fame/?topicid=153494546

Tom Brennan said...

By the way, in AFL articles, even though our prospects performed well, other orgs' prospects are the ones getting the ink. That speaks volumes as to which ones are considered impact prospects.

Tom Brennan said...

Reese, just a hypothetical, but if you had to keep just one, would it be Terry Collins or Ruben Tejada?

Reese Kaplan said...

That's easy...Tejada. You can always bury him on the bench (much as Collins did to Flores, Cecchini, etc.).

That Adam Smith said...

Now, if only Flores and Guillorme could have a love child, we could be contenders again in 20 years or so.

TexasGusCC said...

Brutal Adam Smith.

Thomas, I agree with you that I can't quite pull the trigger on protecting Guillorme because of all the reasons you state.

Doug Flynn was my first ever favorite Met; don't remember why. I later realized where I first saw him. It was a Monday Night Baseball game that had the Big Red Machine and with Dave Concepcion was getting the night off, this rookie was playing SS. I remember that he had one nice play, but after another diving play deep in the hole where he threw the runner out at first, Cosell was just going nuts about this kid. That was Doug Flynn, and I guess Joe Mac was watching.

Tom Brennan said...

Ruben is buried somewhere...Jimmy Hoffa may be nearby.

Tom Brennan said...

Adam, they could be cloned at the Mets' favorite place, the Hospital for Special Surgery.

Texas Gus, I just remember Doug Flynn repeatedly making dazzling plays at 2B. Add 61 RBIs that one year, he was super valuable then, on a bad Mets team.

Reese Kaplan said...

Yet somehow the deposed Skipper decided a guy who can't even stay in the majors deserved to start again and again and again.

Unknown said...

Hell I remember being in attendance 2 years straight for Rey Ordonez’s annual homer un

Tom Brennan said...

Ed, fond Ordonez memories are ones you can't replace. On the other hand, a guy like Aaron Judge hits so many, you've seen one, you've seen them all right?

Tom Brennan said...

Reese, Collins had seniority, but Sandy could still call him Junior. So he had it made, almost untouchable.

David Rubin said...

I saw an article about 2 years ago that said that, according to advanced metrics, Doug Flynn was a much over-rated fielder. I know it was a long time ago now, and as fans we tend to be subjective rather than objective, but having watched just about every game Dougie ever played for us, including more than 75 in person during his 5 years or so with us, I have to say both objectively AND subjectively that in this case those so-called metrics are TOTAL BS!!!! He made plenty of plays with a less-than-stellar SS next to him, and he handled all of the routine plays very well. He wasn't a guy you build a team around, but he certainly wasn't a hindrance in a period of absolutely horrible teams that we put on the field during his stay with us.

I am higher on Luis than many of you seem to be, as his glove is a difference-maker and I still believe that his bat can play at least at major league average, granted with no power or at least next to none. If the team around his is going to include enough good hitters, and the organization is finally going to prioritize defense again, I think he's got to be in consideration for a spot either backing up our middle INF or possibly even a shot at being our second-sacker by 2019, again if things like Smith finding himself (and can we PLEASE not give up on him yet-SHEESH!!!) and Flores finding a spot as well,

Tom Brennan said...

Good points, David.

Tom Brennan said...

One guy who would be a very good comp for Luis Guillorme if he were to become a 2B is Felix Millan....a .278 hitter as a Met, with 8 homers in just under 3000 PAs. Three time All Star (with the Braves), we could only hope Luis might turn out to be close to as good as Mr. Felix.